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This podcast contains graphic content that may be distressing to some listeners. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

If you or someone you know is in crisis or needs support, please contact the relevant mental health or emergency services in your area. Help is available, and you're not alone.

If you're old enough to remember when phones had cords and the only thing that went viral was a cold, then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Big Six-O with Kaylee Harris and Guy Rowlison. Because who better to discuss life's second act than two people who still think mature is a type of cheese?

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Welcome to the Big 6.0 podcast. I'm Guy Rolison and of course sitting next to me is my partner in childhood crime, Kaylee Harris. With my Vegemite triangles ready to go.  How are you?  Don't even get in the way of a woman and a lunch order. That's all I'm saying. Absolutely.  You're not going to steal my space food sticks anymore. Oh, don't go there.  Hey, look, today...

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We've got a really interesting... This is a woman I'd spoken to before in another life essentially.  But today's guest is someone whose life really does read like a book. In fact, she's actually written a couple of books as well. She's a writer, a speaker,  she's an adult educator, trauma survivor. Six books, can I just point out? Thank you. Yep.  And an award-winning filmmaker on top of all of that.  From a childhood marked by pain to a lifetime dedicated to healing,  our guest...

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really is a definition of transformation.  And as I said, I got to know her a little bit just over two years ago, I think now, when we had a chat while I was producing a series  podcast connected with mental health.  From her early days as a chaplain  with the  RAN,  through to leading post trauma support  with New South Wales Police Force  and her memoir inspired film,  My Name, which is now one  90.  94.

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94 international awards.  Her voice is helping  people around the world  find a light in sometimes some of the darkest places. Mel Baker, welcome. Thank you so much.  Great to see you both.  Mel,  if I can just kick things off.  Your creative journey...

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whether it was books and films. It started very early because I remember reading that  you'd written some music by the age of seven, a book at nine, you'd been into acting, artwork, all that sort of things. How did you  discover that storytelling would be part and parcel  of actually conveying something to people  in your life? I think as a child I don't think I ever saw it as storytelling. It was more my outlet.

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in the world that I needed to  take away from what was happening to me.  And sort of like rather than internalise all that pain,  to externalise it and write and  act and be creative, but then I'm naturally born creative as well. Like  I had amazing imagination as well.  I have all these rooms in my mind,  imagination of where I could go to do different things like analysis and...

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a garden room to escape to and all sorts of things.  I was always imaginative and creative. So  painting, storytelling,  music,  was there something that sort of resonated with you more or was it just a combination of everything which  gave you that escape? I think it was everything  because I'm someone who gets bored really easily and school did not do anything for me at all.

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I was always acting up because it wasn't enough. I needed more. I wanted more learning  and I think  doing things with my hands and  writing was probably my most favourite. Like I wrote as soon as I knew how to write a word and I was scribbling pages,  have stacks of books, like pages at home of my childhood.

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Well written that I had to keep on hiding because and and sometimes writing code as well because otherwise my father would is that right? Hmm. Well, let's talk about that We need to go back for people who don't know your story. Can you tell us about that pain and what happened to you? I My mum abandoned me as a baby. She had  two kids before me. So they were 10 years older and my father grew me up  and

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I was always a beautiful princess to him, like up to about four. And then something happened and I, you can never know the why, but I'd love to go and know why, but he crossed that line and sexually abused me from four to 12. And around seven to nine, he also sort of played a game of roulette.

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and whoever won with his business associates, whoever won that roulette would win me. It was the only time I would be in a dress, a white dress, and it was a lot of like my blanket was left at the floor, and I I was be told to behave. I would have to roll the ball in the roulette wheel and he would spin it.

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And they would,  the men would say,  I would have red or black or auto even. There was four other men  with him. And sometimes I would have to be past the two men that night.  So we're talking  an actual roulette table.  No, just a... a roulette... Wheel. Wheel. Yeah. Okay. On the table.

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And did you get to spin it or who spun it, your dad or the people or? I had to, I was ordered to put the balls in and spin it. So it's almost like, did you take that on board then as being somehow you were contributing to this abuse because you got to choose who abused you? I never thought of it like that. I was too young to understand like in the beginning I knew.

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had no idea.  I just thought it was a  party to my life at that stage because I'd been abused by him for three years  and I'm starting to think at seven, I don't think this is right. I don't think this is what father's supposed to do but I had no other reason not to believe that before that because it's not like I've gone into other families and seen other families act.  And  it was always when my mum was a...

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She was travelling a lot. Is this something that at school, I mean,  was there a dawning?  Did you talk to other kids at school?  You said, you know, you were seven. You didn't know that this  there was  some rationalisation at that point or was it all of a sudden?  Now I've realised that this isn't right. No one else that I know.  I mean, did you have friends? What? Yeah, I felt like I couldn't invite friends home from primary school because

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I didn't want them to be harmed. I felt like if they were there, they may be harmed too. So it was like I was protecting other kids, but that means I missed out on my life. But I was silenced by them and their secrets. Like they told me that I can't tell anybody and that my dog will be harmed. And then when my brother actually did find out later and caught us in bed, he was harmed and kicked out of home.

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And so was  just this silence really. So at school, the first time it happened with the group of men in the room, which I call the ring in my book,  I was  in second grade at school  and they asked all the kids who wanted to go to the bathroom,  go to the toilets before you leave school to go with the teacher.

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And I didn't  and I sat, I stood at the  behind my desk at the back and I just we'd on the floor. It was like I had, I was just so silenced. I couldn't even  move. I didn't know what was going on. And I hadn't, I didn't want to go home. Cause there was that, there was the night before and I thought I don't want to go home. So it was like I was stuck in this place. What year are we talking this was happening?

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Decade year?  In the 70s. Okay.  And was school an escape and you desperately wanted to stay there and there was just what, like,  to be able to have to go home? Yeah, school was an escape in a lot of ways but then it was also  a place where I acted out because I wanted adults to ask me the right questions and they wouldn't ask me the right questions. So just the fear of retribution or what may happen?

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prevented you from actually saying anything or is it because you're a child and you thought, no one will believe me or?  There was like any time I tried to  do anything, like say there was one time I had a couple of blood drops  on my pyjamas  and I thought I could finally use this when mum comes home, I can tell her like, look, I'm bleeding to death. said,

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to her. I  didn't understand it in any other way.  And then she said, don't be ridiculous. And I thought that would be the thing that finally she may ask questions and know what's going on. But the thing is that dad will always get there beforehand and say  whatever he wants the story to be. And then so mum will never believe me because he's already got there first. And that would be the same with

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teachers,  else, adults, his best friend who I was always in his company with, he was a beautiful man,  who lived across the road. He would always find out other things so I could never tell him. So was just like he was always a  step ahead of me  and I would  use my intelligence in any way to try to get around, in front, like step ahead of him but  he was always...

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And how long did this continue before you decided to either  have  enough bravery to say,  need to do something, I have to do  X, Y, Z to escape this?  Oh,  I, from about that age at seven was a really turning point when all that started. That I, when he pulled me into his own room, I was fighting back, was  grabbing the doorways.

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like trying to kick him and  everything but it was nothing I could do to take away the harm that he was going to do with me and I and all I figured out my mum kept on saying I was a mistake  so his actions were telling me that I'm nothing I'm not worthy of anything and  they keep on telling me I'm not gonna I'm grow  to be nothing

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you're not worth anything. So I had that in my head thinking that's all I was worth. Like was this abuse? didn't know how to get out of it. And this was until you were 12? Yeah, it stopped at 11 at home when that's when my brother walked in. Okay. What happened then? Take us through what happened after that. So yeah, he was kicked out of home and because then

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Dad knew that someone else knew.  It just, he went more violent towards me. So I would then get bruises on my ribs and  arms. He physically attacked you? would assault me.  And then  there was emotional manipulation type thing. And then  one other sexual incident happened when we were in Lord Howe Island when I was 12.

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in the forest and that was  a vicious assault and  that I couldn't sit down for a week, And that was the last time that happened and then  by  that stage I could be out of the house, I'm in high school, I'm out of the home as much as can,  played a lot of netball and sports so I didn't have to go home. And then at 15,

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one drunken night,  he was drunk  all the time, like from 11 o'clock in the morning until he went to bed  through this whole time.  And  the time that I got home late, he came out of the bed drunk,  had waken him up, and he  came out with his pistol with the bullets in it and was  like...

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putting it to right to my heart. And I'm trying to convince him that I'm your youngest daughter. And I didn't know whether he knew that or not.  But he was convinced to  shoot the intruder. And I just knew I had to punch him out. So he had no idea?  I don't know. I  can't. So he held a gun physically, a loaded gun to you? Yep.  And  I...

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You know that click you hear?  Yeah, when the gun is cocked. Yeah, I keep hearing that throughout my whole life. Like that click doesn't go away.  It was  the only thing I knew how to get out of that situation was just to, I had to punch him and punch him out. So you punched him and he's gone down? He's gone down and I emptied the bullets.  Then I now, knowing that it's full loaded, emptied the bullets, put it in between.

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the in the cupboard behind me between  layers so he couldn't find anything  and put a blanket over him and went to bed. So what  after this has happened?

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Were you thinking about what I need to do? I need to get out of this environment. Had you made plans in advance and thinking, I need to, what's the story? Yeah, so I'm 15, still in year 10, and I'm just thinking I've just got to finish school and get a job and move out. That's my plan. So given that I was always good at art, I went into graphic arts. I got an apprentice job.

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But I never quite, the nine months I was doing that, I never quite could find the right place to get out or the right person to live with. So I was still stuck at home. then  at this workplace, then I was sexually assaulted by a man I  worked with who was married with two kids. Oh my gosh.

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So I just felt like- to wonder like what is it? Yeah, what is it about me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I have a scent or something or something. I'm giving off something. later in my thirties, I went to the police to do a statement against these men. And they said to me, it's actually really normal for someone who, a child being sexually abused that they have, especially teenager,

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abuse from others. That always occurs. I thought, oh, I didn't know that. But I could understand it because that's exactly what happened. But after I lost that job at 16, I was then thrown out of home. And I was then on the streets of Sydney living under the Sydney Harbour Bridge. that's one of your books, isn't it? Yeah. And that led to the film.

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that's won so many, awards  so far. Tell us  the catalyst for the book and  then how that sort of evolved into  what's now been an award-winning film as well, short film. Well, I want to do everything that I do, like you said in the introduction, I want to do it for healing and for inspiring people.  there's so many  millions of men and women who have gone through childhood abuse.  And if I can be a voice to people.

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and to inspire them and say, can find hope, can find courage, you can determine resilient and move past this and find yourself on the other side of this.  And so I write my books for that reason. So I'm doing a trilogy of my life story, because there's so much more than just my first 18 years, which was the first book, Sleeping Under the Bridge. so I did the film that was published in 2022.

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and then did the film shortly after that into 2023. And that was sort of more to do like an ad, so to speak, for the trilogy series so that feature films could be made. So I'm in the process of that at the moment and just sent to the publisher the second book, which is 18 to 38, sort of.

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some of my time in the police,  working through my childhood stuff in therapy.  And  it's a  really vulnerable book. I've just finished writing it last week and  it's probably the most vulnerable I've ever been with people because I feel if I can be vulnerable about what I went through in life and how I moved past that, then that  is surely a healing tool for others.

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So just putting  it just getting back into I feel like we've missed a bit here that you were living under the bridge in the Harbour Bridge  and you were 16 and you were on the streets homeless. Tell us about that time. What and  how did you get from there to  to moving forward a bit?  I understand because I watched the film  and there was some self harm there as well. Can you just talk us through that?

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Yeah, of your life. The film can only the shot from it. Yeah, 30 minutes and it can do a little snippet of my story. But certainly every night on the street, just like at home was just so hard. You don't know what's going to happen. Was King's Cross in the 70s, right? in the 80s. Sorry. Yeah, in the city. it was I mean, we all know what the 80s was.

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people our generation certainly and Sydney at that time was very  was a different place wasn't it? It was and there wasn't really any like John Talbot ministries had a youth hostel for men  in that stage but there's nothing really for women there's no beds I could ever find  that I was really good  at improvisation so I would know how to

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From my childhood, I had the skill of being invisible.  And I could walk into the bottom of  hotel or something. They have the bathrooms and a shower downstairs.  But you've got to know where it is.  I would scout it out and I would go in there to have a shower  every few days.  I'd know where to get clothes from Central Station. So I'd have new clothes from the suitcases left over in Lost and Found.

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I would walk around and  stay as much as I can before I could find at night.  So what did you see your future at that point, at  that moment,  what did you see your future looking like or did you think, it's desperation? Yeah, the only thing that I held onto every day for it was around seven months was hope.  And till hope ran out.

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were towards the end and that's when I got more suicidal and I just felt like I can't live like this anymore and I can't go home and I have nowhere else to go. So what do I do? And I just felt like that was the end. But every time I tried to not more self harm but just like die, something would happen. The first time it happened

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I was at a dead end street in Liverpool at midnight and that time in the 80s, no one lived in  the city really in the 80s and there was nobody around in that area.  I had just like had the knife wind still really bad  and so I decided well I'll just use a knife and  put it in my stomach.  It wouldn't matter if I make any more.

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and  the,  I was just about to, I had the pinpoint on my stomach and then a man just appeared before me with these beautiful glass like eyes and no one  in my life has really ever looked into my eyes and really noticed me as a person and this man did. He looked into my eyes and I saw his crystal like eyes and it just made me forget.

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all that I am and  I  wanted death so badly right then and there. Then when I looked into his eyes all I could see was life and all I could feel was life.  was  the most  amazing experience and then he was gone and all I could I looked up  everywhere couldn't find anybody around  and I thought that's an angel or something.

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Do you think it was someone or do you think it was a spiritual thing? think it was a spiritual thing and it was an angel or  something like that. A spiritual realm or something appeared to me saying, you know, you're going to keep on living here. And so how did that progress from there? Like what  did all of a sudden there was a hope that what happened? There was hope actually because I looked in the paper, found a graphic arts job.

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went for an interview and the most amazing thing is the where I was  in that alley where they pick up the printing was that firm. Wow. That was their back door I was at.  Oh my goodness.  And within a few days I was working there. Wow.  Just things like that It's the stuff books are written about isn't it?

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But that's my life story. Like if I'm more open to what's to the universe and what's going on  and feeling around me, because I've learned that I'm a sensitive soul. I'm in touch with nature. I understand nature with everything because that was really my friend, if you can say,  growing up.  Let's talk a little bit about Say My Name, the short film.  How hard was it?

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to go back to the cross.  How hard was it to relive those experiences? And also with the crew that you probably had to handpick,  how hard was it to find people that had that empathy and could understand the message that you were trying to convey in that? Getting the people was easy because if  you open  your doors, you put out there what you want, the right people came  and they did in  a synchronicity.

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way in everything from  pre-production right through to post-production. was an incredible  journey and everyone  was great for the purpose of what we had to pull together as a team on a very small budget, which was mine.  Going back  to King's Cross was probably the hardest because I hadn't done that.

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I'd worked in the Navy down the road for a while, but I always avoided the area. so, and doing night shots at King's Cross and my, because I was in chronic pain with my knees, I was like in terrible situation for three days. We were shooting like 15 hours a day. And by the third night where I'm sitting on the ground on King's Cross, looking at it from a very different perspective.

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And I just had to push  all that aside, like, I can't deal with this because I have a young crew. It was mainly debut cast and crew and young people.  And I wanted to make sure all the way along of what we're doing  are you OK? And let's talk about that scene. And so was wanting to be a counsellor  as well as a consultant  on set. So it was really important to me.

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What about the, tell us about your work with the police and the Navy.  What kind of work were you doing?  So as a chaplain,  a of people don't understand chaplaincy.  I'm not a religious person at all.  I was a Baptist minister, but for me, chaplaincy is about like pre-counseling. It's walking alongside people and guiding and nurturing them, sustaining them through whatever they're going through at work or at home.

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And because  one of my mottoes is I want help people to be the best they can be. Chaplaincy was a way in for me  that I could do that.  And  for the police,  I was a lead chaplain in post trauma support. So was working on the front line throughout the whole of New South Wales, going to support groups that we had established across the state  and  going to other  death scenes and other...

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critical incidents and being there with the police through that.  Was that difficult for you to do? I know how to  numb myself and compartmentalise very well.  one of, I said talk about one of the rooms that I have is I have a photographic memory, visual. So I have a filing cabinet in my head and I would visualise.

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someone's story that they told me and I never want them to repeat that story because it's hard for them to do. So I'd put that in their filing cabinet in my head and remember that and so they can never have to repeat it and then we can start off wherever we were in the next session that they want to talk about. And I found that was really important so was holding hundreds of stories  in my mind  and then keeping that when I went into the Navy.

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as a chaplain after I'd finished my Doctor of Education and I was poached to go to the Navy and then having all the military stories in my head. So how does someone like yourself that has to give so much to others, knowing your backstory and what you do for other people, how does Mel Baker care for herself? Where does she fit on the food chain of looking after herself?

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When I was in the police, right at the bottom.  And the Navy, I was like really, really bad at caring for myself. I  think I, through all my 20s and  30s, 40s, I did not  know my needs and wants still. I was never taught anything as a child. Like I grew myself up through all that loneliness and abuse and stuff. So  I  had to work out life.

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for myself and that life was very different to what most people learn  how to do  and I learned from watching others and so that was sort of like really hard then to put myself into  what do I need to do for me? was always how do I protect myself? How do I move forward? And how do I help others? Like it was never

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There was never anything else in time for that.  And that how you care for yourself,  it doesn't matter whether you're,  what you're going through. You can be in your 60s. It's a mental health thing too, where you  have to work it out for yourself sometimes. Tell us about the book. You've said you've just finished?  Book two.  us about that. Yeah, building the bridge has  now become a metaphor. So the bridge  is nothing of a structure that I'm sleeping under.

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but it's still a protection place and it's still something that I'm learning to build in my  20s and  30s about  understanding who I am through all this, finding me and in helping others through that.  And then it ends on a cliffhanger.  I'll only give you the last chapters called More Than Nine Lives.

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So you can understand.  I have had many lives.  I think by this stage I've had, I mean, 20 new death experiences in my life. So  I'm definitely not a cat.  And,  you know, this decade's been so hard.  And I look forward to writing book three, which is climbing the bridge  and which is sort of the Navy stuff and

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the grand finale of where I end up. If there's a message  from your lived experiences, you're a survivor  and what you've  experienced in your life, what would be that to those that have remained silent, whether it's for  years or decades,  what would be your message for those people? I think the biggest thing I've learnt  is that what is hidden is dangerous.

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and so that's including our own silence and not standing up in any way for what  anyone has done to us  and that could be just going into therapy or to talk with a friend or  but getting out what's in us  out of us because

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that's really quite dangerous for all, know, just even health, for stress, for cortisol levels, for every, I think I've had cortisol probably in my system all my life.  But it's so important just to let that go. And one of the biggest things I know  I've done  is I've, the last in my chain of my family, I've stopped that generation of abuse.

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That's a massively powerful message, but a massively powerful story.  And thank you so much for sharing it with us on the big six. So if people want to find out more  about whether it's say my name living under the bridge or what's happening, is there some way that they can, they can check out?  Yeah, I've got five websites, but probably the best one is drmelbakerbooks.com.  Drmelbakerbooks.com. That's a nice, easy one to remember. Mel, thank you so much for sharing your story. It's a very powerful message and

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Hopefully, I'm sure it will bring  some comfort to a lot of people. Hopefully, yeah. Yeah, just keep believing in yourself. That's a really important thing too.  Mel, thanks so much again.  The views and opinions expressed on the Big  6O are personal and reflect those of the hosts and guests.  They do not represent the views or positions of any affiliated organisations  or companies.

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This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as professional advice. Please consult with a qualified professional for guidance on any personal matters.  Ah, and before we go,  let's give credit where credit is due.  Kayleigh Harris and I came up with all the genius content for this week's episode. Our producer,  Nicka Boode,  well, he keeps the lights on and makes sure we don't accidentally upload a cat video instead of a podcast.

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So thanks for keeping us on track Nick.  Nick?  Nick?