00:00

If you're old enough to remember when phones had cords and the only thing that went viral was a cold,  then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Big Six-O with Kaylee Harris and Guy Rowlison. Because who better to discuss life's second act than two people who still think mature is a type of cheese?

00:35

Welcome to the Big 6.0 podcast. And if you're listening for the first time, thank you for joining us.  Us being me and my primary school marbles buddy, Guy Rowlison. G'day. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm really well.  Now in the Big 6.0 podcast, we explore what it's like being in your third age  in 2025. How am I supposed to act?  How am I supposed to look and what am I not supposed to say? And how can I embarrass my children?

01:01

It's something I work on every day.  We mix that in with some guests who may or may not have reached this milestone and explore their lives as well, because I believe everyone has a story. Now I had the absolute pleasure of seeing our next guest perform on stage a few weeks ago. And I have to say after dancing all night,  I seriously needed the Neurofit and the Voltar. This show was called Celebrating the Music of Countdown Live and it's hosted by and  performed by none other than former Cockroaches frontman,

01:30

Paul Field who's joining us today. Paul, welcome. Thank you, Carly and Guy. It's interesting because...

01:36

You mentioned the marbles. Maybe you're saying that Guy lost his marbles and I didn't know what you meant by that. We recorded. Should I just leave now? Now I want to go back to your early beginnings because your family's story is extraordinary.  You're one of seven kids. Yeah, God help me.  Your mum, Mari, your dad, John, a pharmacist. Yes.  And they lost a child, Mary. Yeah, mum's first born child was  stillborn.

02:06

Yeah, so I think she would have anyway, but we were all treasured, you know, really were.  And  I guess,  you know,  life was treasured.  And  yeah, there's a lot of joy in our  childhood. And even though that's an awful tragic start to  marriage,  was a very joyful marriage and full of fun music, kids.

02:35

and chaos.  I can imagine. Now you grew up in Sydney's West. Yeah. In a, I guess a housing commission area. Your dad was the local pharmacist. Yes. Tell us about, and you just mentioned then about music. Yeah. How important was that to you and your family growing up and how did it shape who you have become now?  It's a part of our DNA. It really is. And mum still says to the day, you know,

03:00

learning to play an instrument or enjoy music is as important as learning to read and write.  And she was a musician herself,  still plays piano,  played music to us all the time,  very Catholic tastes in the sense of from Gilbert and Sullivan to The Beatles,  Man of La Mancha, like  stuff  probably not a lot of other people were playing, but she loved it and she cranked it too, you know, and

03:28

Dad loved music, wasn't a musician himself, but  encouraged it. And so we, know, we, we, we sung down at the church. Mum would  play organ at, at, at funerals, at events, Christmas Eve.  It was just part of our lives. And so, yeah,  it left an imprint and  very much, as I said, part of the fun of our life was music. At what point though, I mean, there was chaos in the house.  At what point did it become not just

03:58

a hobby perhaps or a passion that you thought there's potentially a career in this.  We've never really thought of it in those terms because  that kind of sounds business like whereas we were just like fanatics  about music. By the time we're in high school particularly and  I went to a boarding school and like

04:21

brothers of mates of mine would say, oh, you've got to get into the Stones or Slade or whatever it was, right?  And that's how you, oh, OK, yeah, sure, right?  And so I became a Stones fanatic.  And so did my brothers, because that's what you do. You share the music. And of course, Elvis and everyone else.  And so music at high school, Johnny and Anthony actually  were in the orchestra. They played violin and so on. And then we started mucking around together as a band in high school.

04:50

And the ultimate dream was to do a gig, right?  Not to make it. one.  Seriously, like as Ian Wynne, I was if we could be,  you know,  make a record or be famous or anything like that. It was just all about doing a gig.  And I had a  burning bush  moment  with music. And I'll tell you, was the year 10 dance with a local girls school and  our year put together a rock band. were guys who played together.

05:18

And they said, we're going to play the dance. It's like, great, OK. And they said to me, hey, mate, you're Stones fan. Why don't you get up and sing a couple of Stones songs? went, yeah, sure. Right. So I did Honky Tonk one and I can't remember the other one. Then I go, I can't remember what I for breakfast this morning. Speaking of over 60. There you go. Who are you again? Yeah. But here's the moment. Right. So particularly being boarding school boys, you know, God help us, you go to a dance.

05:47

And you had about five minutes to pick anyone to go, will you dance with me? You know, whatever. It was so confident. And anyway, so I get up and sing these two songs. I get up off stage, same nerdy bloke, and two girls came up to me to say good day. Wow. Now that had never happened in So that was a moment for you. That's a defining moment, right?

06:12

Yeah, I'm still talking about it. And that's the point. You know, as in, geez, suddenly behind a microphone, you get a focus. It's fun. there's girls. I'm being honest with you here, Kayleigh. Yeah, that's a lot. Because I would imagine it would be very difficult as a guy going to a dance and all the girls are there and you sort of, which one do I pick? And they all hang out in groups and. Oh, yeah.

06:38

You don't want to get rejected, but yeah. Well, and particularly because I went to an all boys school,  right? You know, I mean, I had sisters, but that's different, you know?  And,  you know, we're just all nerdy, don't know anything about anything.  And so, yeah, it's a big challenge just to go up to a girl and say something, you know. But it's funny because when I did leave high school.

07:02

good friends of mine at Sydney Uni, we'd all get together. And she reckoned, my now wife Pauline, I met first year out of school, we didn't start dating for a little while after that, she said, actually, you blokes were more polite because you hadn't had as much experience with girls. So I thought, oh, well, that's not bad. That's a credit to your mum and dad too. Yeah, perhaps. I don't know. But, you know, and also Johnny and Anthony played in a band while we were in school.

07:32

And then while they were still in year 12, I don't know what came over me, but I just thought, yeah, we've got to do a gig. We've got to do a gig. We're in a lot of gigs up in King's Cross. I thought of that as a thing. I literally approached the guy who ran the Australian Heritage Hotel in King's Cross. And this is in 1979. And even now, if you're released on bail, they say you can't go to the cross.

07:59

It's the land of naughtiness.  What was the pitch?  I basically looked up what the bands they have and all that because they were having bands.  said, mate, look, I've got a band called the Cockroaches.  You don't have anyone on Sunday afternoons, right? So we'll come and play for free. So you got nothing to lose.  But if you dig us  and you get us back, you pay us next time. Not for you can't refuse.

08:25

And for us, like, I mean, the boys were still in  high school, for God's sake. So we technically weren't old enough to be playing there. anyway,  let's push that aside. The licensing to the police are all dead now.  So we did the gig and it was just basically like a party for friends. Hey, all the girls we knew,  all the mates we knew, come down, we're playing and it's free. So, you know, it was our audience, our age group playing and it was fun. And it was your people.

08:53

Yeah, it was like our own party.  so and then my sister was going to a college at Sydney Uni,  St Sophia,  and  they had a punk night, whatever that meant. But because we were called the cockroaches,  they got us.  And so we played there. And so really, from then on, we got uni gigs and school gigs. So  I still run into people online and offline and whatever in person  to a woman.

09:21

who may have grandchildren by now who says, you played my year 11 formal. where did the name the cockroaches come from? Why not the, you know, well, obviously not the ladybirds or the  butterflies, but where did the cockroaches come from? Okay. I mentioned we were Stones fanatics. Yeah.  I,  we were right. And the Stones played a secret gig.  In fact, they still do this today where they do a warmup gig in the front of the public. Right. There's always different, just rehearsing. Right. So pressure's on.

09:51

And when they did the secret gigs in that year, they played at the El Macambo Club in Toronto, which you can go to and there's Stones memorabilia and they call themselves the Cockroaches. Oh, brilliant. And also, you know, it's kind of a piss take of the Beatles. Sydney's full of cockroaches. And I kid you not, I mean, God help us, we literally put the name together for a gig and people remembered it too. It kind of had, it ticked a number of boxes.

10:21

Yeah. And that whole work ethic thing, I mean we've heard it before but it just ramped up didn't it because you started to get more more more gigs  and then there was the whole cockroaches of the most work ethic orientated band that are going around. Yeah well that's  it actually. One thing we did have,  we loved what we did and I reckon that's like the flu, it's infectious right you know  and it really is. Like if you're having a good time

10:49

So did the audience and  we were very much a part of that. That was, you know,  and so we got a  good name for having a good time. And  if you went to see us, you'd have a good time.  And I'm not harbouring on the gender break up here, but  it was mainly  women of our age that came to the gigs.  Famous,  infamous funny story. Mick Welts, I think the huge slide guitarist for Rose Tattoo. Will Cockroaches were playing at the Graphic Arts Club one night.

11:19

And he's mates with Graham Kennedy, not the TV host, but a Melbourne guitarist who's in a band called Finch. so he's mate with Mark Evans, who was an ACDC, who's mate with Mick, right? So that long-winded intro, Mick's at the gig, right? And just to say good day. And Graham says to me, oh, come over, Mark's over here and Mick's here. I said, oh, great. I go over to Mick, oh, here you go, mate. And he said, I want to be in your band. And I laughed, as you did, because Rose Taddeo and the Cockroach was already there.

11:48

I said, great, great. Wow. And he said, look at your audience.  He said, they're fantastic. Our audience are all blokes and bikers.  Of course. point, mate. Good thing. But yeah, so we got a good name for being live. And yeah, we played multiple times,  sometimes per night, right?  Every day of the week, every state in the country. And yeah, The Daily Telegraph once did a poll through the booking agencies.

12:17

of the band that played the most in a year and we were in.  And it impacted, know, and so we'd  we'd done singles over the times, we charted independently.  And then luckily in us,  I think you're going to have something, but everyone needs a bit of luck as well and good timing. And we were supporting the Unkenny X-Men, if you can remember the Unkenny X-Men,  and a very similar audience. And we're down at Selena's at Coogee Bay. Oh, classic venue. Yeah. And there's a producer called Charles Fisher who did everyone from

12:46

Savage Garden, Moving Pictures, The Gurus, you name it, alright? And very successful guy, right? And he was at the gig and Martin Fabini, who ran Regular Records, was there. And we were on performing and Charles can spot a few things, a hit, potential and whatever. He said, mate, are you signing these guys? And he said, oh, I'm not sure. He said, why? He said, look at this reaction.

13:15

these guys can sell records, right, which is a great line, right? So I went, okay. Yeah, what a great compliment. Yeah. And how  about you produce them? And so he did, you know, and  because we, you know,  the debut album came out  and it debuted on the Sydney charts at number two.  Wow. So  not a slow burn then? Not a slow burn.

13:38

And so, you know, it was we had great success instantly. When I say instantly, we've been playing for  seven years or whatever. But  and we did all the shows, you know, Countdown, Hayate, Saturday Sounds of the Morning.  It was a buoyant industry.  And we rode the last wave of that pub rock here again. We had great, great, great, great fun.  We loved doing it. It was all the dreams that you had  and even more, you know.  So we were on cloud nine.

14:07

occurred you that it might have been too much as far as the work and this? No, no, no. I mean, no, it's, you know, we loved it. I mean, God help us, three of us were brothers, right? know, our brothers, I should say. We didn't divorce.  So it was great. meant we got stuff done really quickly because you know, my grandma with relays, you can cut to the chase.  Sometimes not in a wonderful, friendly, buoyant way. But  yeah,  and so occasionally

14:36

You know, you're literally driving around in a Turago together. There were tensions and whatever else, but a lot of bands get into trouble because of that. But whereas we played sport and just fought each other that way, seriously. And my wife Pauline was dating me at the time and she couldn't believe it, right? She got a couple of brothers, but they're much younger. And she said, you pick me up and we began a gig and Johnny and Anthony be in the car with me.

15:04

We drive to the gig and she said, you blokes should be arguing about something. Normally nothing, but just, know, gold, full hammer and times. She's thinking, God help us. She said, you get out of the car, grab your guitars, whatever. And she said, it was over. You get on stage. She said, if my sister's knife fought like that, it'd be a year of fighting. She said, you kind of get it out of your system ferociously and then it was over. And which is probably a good thing.

15:32

So let's talk about the band. So you've got yourself, you're singing. Yes. Johnny's playing guitar. Yes, and Anthony on guitar. Anthony on guitar. Jeff Fatt, who eventually became a Wiggle. Yep. On keys, Tony Henry, who went to high school with us on drums and originally Phil Robertson on bass and then Peter Mackey, but that was it. Yeah. Yeah. And your first album went gold and platinum. Yes. So this is around 1987, just so we're the time. And as you said, voted the hardest.

15:58

working rock band in Australia, sometimes doing, can't still can't believe there's three shows and the nights.  That's extraordinary. To briefly explain in case you're thinking on BS and  you do like a regular gig  at say, I can remember it was not the Sam Miguel over the North Shore there. Yeah, yeah. I remember. You'd finish it at say 11 then we'd zoom over to Sydney Uni for one of the colleges balls  at probably 1230.

16:26

and then go to another college balls, which would go all night, right, at two in the morning, right? And that sounds like, God help us, what a wasteland. But no,  those balls, uni balls at this time, you'd pay a fee and you'd get food and grog and the bands all night,  right? So, you know, like a BNS, whatever, people were there the whole night.  And the extent of them,  one of those in the early days, we came on at  John's College Ball  before InXS.

16:54

Oh, no way. Who were an up and coming band in one of those early shows that we did. It's just like they were the way you got to people. They'd see you uni, they'd see you at college. And then the difference in the era then to now, the biggest bands of the time, from Chiseled to Craterhouse to The Oils, everyone like that, they would come not only to your city, they'd come to your suburb. Right, so they'd play the comb and cutter at Blacktown, The Family and at Roddermere.

17:21

You're talking my language now.  Everywhere. Your local pub. And they'd be packed out. So  it was an awesome time to be in a band.  Yeah. Your dad was a pharmacist. What was it like during that time  with your parents? What was the feedback from them?  Were they going, oh, what are you doing, son? Boys, boys, get a real career. Or they just said, OK, this is what you're to do. No, they were.

17:49

incredibly encouraging and I didn't realize how great they were as parents till you start talking to mates. My wife Pauline and her parents were wonderful but if they got in trouble with a teacher they go, come on Pauline, you know should be doing this. Whereas we go, oh so and so is a bit of a whatever and they go, okay. They'd be on it more, dad would be on our side. You know, great line, often times we were rat-bagged so we got into trouble fairly frequently. He goes, two things.

18:18

Paul, go easy on yourself and don't tell your mother. Classic dad line right there. Life advice right there. But to explain also, Dad had had a cardiac arrest in 1969 when he was in his mid-30s and he survived. A spiritual kind of guy and so he said after that, I've got to do good things for the community. He's a real community minded guy.

18:45

So drugs in the Western suburbs and Sydney anyway,  just started to of creep in. And he thought, okay, that's something I can do. He went, talked in high schools about the use, the proper use and the abuse of drugs. And it was great, very common sense stuff, right? Way before life education, know, really new ground.  And also kids that he had once weighed on the weighing machine at the pharmacy were now teenagers and late teens getting into drugs.  And

19:15

Parents would come down to me, oh Mr. Feather, my son's doing this, you know, what do think? So dad thought, gee, okay. And he started to counsel addicts, dispense methadone for God's sake, right? Very hands on with that. one of the, so apart from being an amazing bloke like doing that, we saw the sad reality of what drugs can do to you when you abuse them, right? And also,

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The takeaway from that was you'd see some kid who's  caught up in abuse, drug abuse,  and would say, now I know the family they come from. It's a good kid. He's just made a bad choice.  How did you stay off the drugs? Being in the music industry, I could imagine that was fairly rife. Your dad's a pharmacist on one hand,  and you guys go into music. How did you stay or  did you stay away from the drugs? We did because we had seen all this.  Right.  And dad also said,

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if someone's into something positive, so go for it, because it keeps them busy, keeps them away from stuff that can get busy in a negative way. And so, of course, we love music. Having seen kids go off the rails, he went, go for it. So he didn't say a word about the cross being a bad thing. He just went, look after yourself. You know what's right and wrong, go for it. And we were offered everything you can imagine, right, particularly in the cross.

20:42

I can tell you funny story, there's a true, true, true story. Our  brother Patrick's a big bloke, 6'3", I think,  and formidable, he's a rower, just a rugby player.  Don't mess with Patrick, right?  Anyway, he's a funny bloke,  and  we're backstage, it was at the cross, actually, at Club Court X, which is not  an erotic place, this  was just a music venue. Anyway, a bloke comes backstage literally with a bag, and I'm talking, he could have...

21:12

comes straight from Keith Richards, opens up the bag and he said, what do want guys? Right? And basically my brother, said, mate, you're a drug dealer. Right? He went, he laughed. went, well, I guess I am. And he like, Patrick laughed and he said, boy, if you come to the wrong place. And again, we had no disdain for it. It's just like, no, we don't do it. You know, worries, mate. See you later. So, know, once, once you've said no and that's it. that's how we kept away from that. And

21:41

I'm glad we did, know. It was from an educational reason and a lived experience that we saw with other people.  Can I just move on to something very private?  1988  was  a devastating year for you  and your family with the loss of Bernadette. Can you talk through that whole part of your life? Oh, sure. So in  1988,  we had another album out. We'd had great success, still kicking.

22:08

countdown and everything else was on the air. So was kind of like, this is going to last forever. Things were great. And I toured a lot. I also was home a lot in between tours. So by that stage, we had two children, Luke was two, Bernadette, was, excuse me, born on the 20th of January in 1988. And in September of that year, was touring up in Queen, well, the band were touring up in Queensland.

22:33

And literally the night before, in the days before mobiles, this sounds ancient history.  But we kept in contact by a landline and my wife was staying up with her parents up in the Hunter Valley  and  she literally put Bernadette on the phone who'd just started little crawls and they taught her to say ta-ta.  And  so they put on the phone to me and she literally said ta-ta, whispered it,  which was  beautiful.  she probably put her to sleep.

23:04

And this is just remarkable. The next day, it was the first red-nosed day around Australia.  And that's awareness and fundraising for the prevention of sudden infant death syndrome. And during the night  of  the early morning of September 2nd, Bernadette died in her sleep from sudden infant death syndrome. Never been sick a day prior to this. No indications, just terror.

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Pauline finding her,  racing to the hospital, but she passed and the doctor very soon was up to say that's sudden infant death. So yeah,  mean, our world fell apart.  I came down off the road from touring and  yeah, it's still with me.  It's the worst thing that can happen to you. I don't want to gauge differences of grief and the rest of it, but...

24:01

we're not meant to outlive our children, let alone  at that age when there's no idea of what's happened. And not many people knew about sudden infant death in those stages.  So yeah, it threw us. And  I think there were changes in the industry. Not that I think there were that year anyway, and  venues started to change and  countdown went off the year, radio changed.

24:29

So it kind of all came together where things were suddenly the year after 88 different  and it was harder. Even though we had had huge success, we had a good name, we still pulled people to gigs, but it was harder.  And I must have been very hard to  travel with.  I imploded.  mean,  yeah, no one could relate to me. I was just very quiet and overwhelmed with everything.  I sought counselling, which was great.

24:59

and that really helped me through. But the fun kind of went out of it for a while. And a year or two after that, Anthony said pretty much that, like the work was hard going. We'd travel all around the country, but it was harder, you know? And Anthony was kind of the canary down the mine who said, it's not that much fun, you know? And I'm going to finish off my uni degree, because he'd done a year of a degree in early childhood studies.

25:29

And I said, I'm going to finish it off and see what happens from there. It's like, how can you do that? But we worked around him,  coming and going. And  that's when he finished that degree. He then  said he'd had the experience with us. Cockroaches were still going, but we were kind of wounded.  And  the  industry was different. So he said, I'm serious about this, as a way of getting a job as a preschool teacher. Because not many blokes teach in preschool.

25:59

Now, a little on my way back then, I should make an album of music. And I should say, actually, at one of the cockroaches get togethers, our meetings where they'd say, here's where you're touring, know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Once Anthony's into something, it's 100 % right. And back to the drugs, if any of us got into drugs, I reckon we'd last a week at most, whatever we do, it's over the top. Anyway, Anthony, luckily, it was kids music rather than smack. And he literally...

26:29

I've got to say, I understand it now because  I'll say this and I'm fair dinkum about this, know,  there's something magical or of the divine with music, right? And I saw this with the Wiggles over the decades I worked with them.  You would have children or people on the spectrum where  nothing gets through to them or very little, sorry, I should say.

26:53

with a non-verbal but music does.  Music comforts them, excites them, brings joy to them.  anyway, so  Anthony was just taken with this and he said to us at one of these cockroaches meetings,  we should make an album of kids music, which is like, yeah.  Well, I'm laughing about it now, it's probably a bloody good idea. But it actually was good we didn't join in because that meant he had to do it himself and he knew what he was doing.  And perhaps like, just even though we're a

27:20

just born very closely together, was May 61, Johnny May 62, Anthony May 63. There's a weird kind of break up things where, you I booked our first gigs and it was kind of the cranky older brother, come on, you need to be here. Not cranky all the time. Johnny was the main songwriter and Anthony was the fun lad, right? You know? So it was good he went by himself to make this album, even though he pulled Jeff into it and some mates from uni. But we might have interfered with that process.

27:49

Like John might have said musically, know, da da da.  Whereas he did invite us into it and he said, Johnny, have you got any songs for us? And  Hot Potato Johnny had. Oh, wow. That was a Johnny song. That was a yeah, yeah, absolutely a Johnny song.  And because I've got to say in that era when Anthony's at uni finishing off his degree,  the cockroach is still going. But, you know, things are a bit different. They would busk a lot.  Excuse me.  In the days when

28:19

people actually  paid dollars  in the days when people had money,  coins I meant and that type of stuff.  And they would literally go down to Circular Key and do real show off attention getting stuff, which is what we always do.  But I mean literally playing Wooden Heart by Elvis  where the whistle solo Anthony would put it in his nose and blow through his nose.

28:47

Younger brother stuff, Thank you. I was about to say it, but yeah, you got it. Attention-gaving stuff. they,  excuse me, they were jam songs and that's where Johnny first sang Hot Potato and it was called a call and response song. Hey boys, do this. Hot potato, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato. You know, and it was just a fun rockabilly kind of song, you know?  So that was the process from the earliest day where the Wiggles were the Wiggles, but they'd pull in

29:15

help for various things. Can you tell us how I love this story and I've heard it before but I love it. How Jeff got involved in the Wiggles.  Okay so  Jeff great piano player Anthony  yeah just great piano player full stop  and  we needed piano oh sorry they needed piano on this the tracks they were playing  and  Jeff's always whatever house he's got whatever flat he's got he's always working on it right that's that's his kind of meditation thing you know  and

29:45

So he's doing up his flat somehow, painting or whatever. And Anthony rings me and I'm like, we're doing a recording. Come down and play keyboards. He said, how long is this going to take? Or 20 years. 33 years later. So he was, it was great. And, and Jeff was Anthony's musical right-hand guy for all the, for the 20 something years he was with the band, you know? Yeah. So it great. You've said that luck plays a part in every band or every, every career. When was that moment for the Wiggles? Oh yeah. That's,

30:15

Yeah, timing and luck.  we'd had this  great success.  And Anthony decided, why don't I combine  the early childhood education and our musical pedigree? You didn't put it in those words, but that's fine.  And the timing. There was a woman who worked at Festival Records who distributed the cockroaches, right?  And it was her first week running ABC Music.

30:44

And Anthony and the Wiggles took down the tape of their album. And it was like a uni project. They had a folder explaining every song very seriously.  Yeah, seriously. Right. The educational background, da da.  And Meryl thought, well, I know two of these guys and boy, they've had success. They can write a great tune.  And she gave him a go.  She gave him the benefit of the doubt.  There was nothing like them. And there's always a thing about being unique. You know, now you can say, you know, like the Wiggles. Then it was like,

31:14

Who are these guys? What can it? But she literally said to me later, they're young, good looking blokes. I know they can write a tune. Must've give them a go. And she said to Anthony at the time, look, you know, after they said, we're going to sign you, they said, look, at most you might sell 3000 copies. Anthony at the time thought, 3000 copies? Wow. Just for early childhood. It was like unheard of, you know? I must add, she must add something, Meryl, because that same week she also signed Lee Kernigan, who is...

31:43

Still to this day one of the ABC's biggest sellers. So  thank goodness we went in, you know,  at that time and it just grew organically bit by bit.  And the good thing was  Anthony was forward thinking and  using the experience we had in the Cockroachers. So we did like a dozen film clips  and we eventually paid for them, but the record company paid for them. They'd pay it back out of your royalty  and, you know, very big productions.

32:12

But you kind of sat around till they went, OK, come up here and action and sit down for another hour while we set up this and blah, blah. So it wasn't a very fun process. Sometimes they were great. We did a live clip for She's the One. That was fun. We didn't have to do much of the audiences there jumping around, blah, blah. So Anthony had a very good original idea at the time. He said, with this kid's album, why don't we shoot every track? And we go, oh, mate, you can't do that many. costs you fortune.

32:39

And they had no money.  And so he said, no, no, we'll do it like live TV, where you've got two, perhaps three camera shoot, know, one getting the wide and the other doing close ups. And after every take, we'll just walk behind the screen, play it back. Any mistakes? No, that's done. Bloody brilliant. Unheard of, Yeah, brilliant. But see,  based on the experience we had being in a band where we did TV, we did Eclipse, we know how to perform to cameras, you know. Yeah.

33:09

Were you in the Wiggles and those? you play any roles? Because I often get asked, you know, wasn't  someone said to me the other day, wasn't Paul Captain Feathersword at one point or? Yeah, so we all did.  Short answer. Yeah. So I was Captain Feathersword in a few videos. Yeah.  And when I eventually managed the Wiggles, I made sure we reshot those.

33:33

No, I was every single character in various clips. Dorothy, everybody. yeah, there's no one around. Hey Paul, guess what?  You're waxed a dog today.  I work cheap, you know.  The funniest thing actually,  you probably find it on YouTube because as I I honestly redid all our early stuff just to make it uniform look and quality level and all that kind of stuff. But the very first film that The Wiggles did was Dorothy the Dinosaur, which was based on an old cockroach's song called It's Another Saturday.

34:02

And anyway, they shot it in the open at Darling Harbour.  And same thing, hey, Paul,  you want to fit in the Doris inside? went, yeah, sure, no worries. And that's a very cottage industry. So Murray's then-girlfriend,  soon-to-be wife Meg, made the costume. And they just said it was essentially a head and a tail.  So we're green t-shirt and green jeans. Where we got those, don't know.  And  they put gloves on me.

34:31

and a handbag as well, right? Now, there was no instruction, right, about the characters, this, that and the other. I just said, dance to the thing, right? You know, I said, okay, I can do that. And if you look at the clip, I have moments that are a total Mick Jagger. At one stage, I'm swinging the bag around in the air, right? You know, and it's like they're Jagger moves, not Dorothy. But I had fun, Yeah, yeah. And you've gone from like...

35:00

sweaty pubs,  to community halls with mums and dads. But of course it became very big relatively quickly and you've moved on to places like Madison Square Garden and had celebrities wanting to clamber for a Wiggles concert, right? Yeah, so what we decided to do and  Anthony was driving all of this with of course Murray Jeff and

35:27

and Greg and they all contributed. But Anthony was very much always looking ahead, right? And even in the earliest days after a few albums and videos said, we need a choreographer. And it's like, wow, that's forward thinking, you know, and stepped up. you know, we then, and as you said, you know, they were touring. If you think it was hard work in the band for the cockroaches, the Wiggers at one stage were doing four shows a day.

35:57

And they're like 45 minutes to an hour shows. It's physically amazing and they went everywhere.  So they had a groundswell in the same way as the Cockroaches then sold massive amounts of albums because we'd toured everywhere. The Wiggles had the same template. But the missing link for there was TV. So  no one wanted to touch us.  No one believed in us in those early days. So  we'd feed the ABC video clips.

36:27

Then eventually, when I started managing them in about 97, we made some TV and I took it to Channel 7. And they had an output deal with Disney. So Disney and 7 worked together and they all knew how popular the Wiggles were. And they went, yeah. And so funny enough, even though we were signed by the ABC, by 97, 98, when I was managing them, we were there

36:57

biggest selling act in all genres.  Wow. Yet they didn't play us on TV, apart from video clips.  They didn't believe in us, right?  So Disney did.  Is that when you went to the US? Yeah. So Disney, Disney,  even way back then, were very good at stats and numbers. And they would,  with the bare minimum, they had individual film clips  and they they scheduled them. They call it wiggle time.

37:26

I'm making these numbers up, but 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, every hour was wiggle time. They'd play a clip, there'd be an animated opening and closer. And they saw their numbers go up when the wiggles were on. So don't take rocket scientists to go, hey. We need more of that. We need more of that. And so they ran a series, but they also wanted unique content. So they were the ones who said, how about we take you guys to Disneyland?

37:54

And we were young enough to go, did I? Oh, I've you the form. OK, sure. It's true. And we'll shoot the concert and we'll own that. We'll just, you know, play it, play it. And we went, yeah, of course, nothing to lose. By us playing over there in the States, we invited everyone, like from video companies to come see us, including Disney. And we got signed to a video company at the time called Lyric, who were based in

38:23

in Texas, Dallas, Texas, and Lyric  owned and created Barney the Dinosaur, who was  massive in America. mean, yeah, big as you can get.  They signed us  and  we started touring, know, like I'm  kid you not like supporting Captain Kangaroo at SeaWorld.  Seriously,  you know,  blockbuster video where  there was,  I think, 10 people, right, just really.

38:53

trying hard to crack the nut. And then,  a bit of a spinal tap moment, but Lyric said, we love you guys. We know if people see you, they'll love you, right?  So we'll get you to support Barney at Radio City Musical in New Wow. Right?  And that sounds like it's spinal tapish. Wow, you're supporting.  And we literally came on in the intermission. Right? Yeah. Now, if that was a rock group, most people were out. Yeah. Getting a drink and whatever.

39:19

With kids shows if you've got your kids settled and whatever you're not moving  right  and  In the season they were there for weeks. They played  to 90,000 New Yorkers and What did all those good New Yorkers do they said wow  the Wiggles am I kid loved them? Where do you get their videos and we're only in boutique scores FAO Schwartz Sony Brady noodle canoodle so they went online and suddenly after that see that

39:47

short season at Radio City Music Hall, the Wiggles had two of our videos in the top 10 Amazon video sales. And someone at Walmart, the world's biggest retailer, said, who the hell are the Wiggles  that have got two videos and we don't stock them? Let's get the Wiggles. They're all about sales.  this a moment for you where,  and I say you, mean, the  Wiggles.

40:12

Were you surprised? Was this just taking off at such a great rate of knots? Or did it feel like that at the time? Or did it feel more like a slow sort of a thing where you'd been working for so many years in a band together? Were you taken by surprise? Not by surprise, I'm serious when I say this. Our approach with the cockroaches like, wouldn't it be great to do a gig? Everything was cream on the cake. It was. We just loved performing. Same with the Wiggles.

40:39

Anthony just wanted to be able to do it, to create music. The fact by the time we went to the States, that's like a great adventure, you know, and anything was going to be great. And so those very humbling experiences, which might kill another band, it's like, we'd been there in a band on the road when there was more people on stage than in the audience, you know, you just rock out.  And also  when you know that what you're doing is good  and  that you will get a reaction. So there were ebbs and flows and ups and downs.

41:08

And we just had to have confidence in ourselves, which we did. And even me in the selling of the Wiggles to Americans. And  it's hard to contemplate now when a world is so connected with the internet and God knows what.  But back in those days, I kid you not, it's profoundly different. So Mad Max was dubbed.  They didn't think they'd understand the Australian accent. When Thomas the Tank Engine, a huge English early childhood show, came to America, they dubbed that. They got rid of the English voices.

41:38

and people out there listening prefer to be shocked.  The guy they sacked in inverted commas to re-voice that was narrating Thomas the Tank Engine was Ringo Starr from The Beatles. Can you believe it? So that's how serious they were. So the biggest hurdle I had to overcome in just talking about the Wiggles to video distributors and retailers and all the rest of it was, OK, yeah, that's good. You're huge in Australia. That means nothing to us.  But the Americans at least do have the

42:07

well it could be good. This is the country that sold pet rocks.  So  the English will shut you down pretty quickly. That's not like us, know, but the Yanks always think, ooh, it could work.  So they'll talk nice to you, but you need to convince them. And you're so Australian, right? And we are, still are, right?  Westies, right?  And here's the irony. So what I did say to lyric before they had signed us was, look.

42:34

This is educationally based. It's sounding with the principles. It's entertaining  and it's international. Take the tape cassettes  in a video cassettes, give them to the preschools and say, take them home, play with the kids. And they came back and went, oh my God, my kid loves this. The preschool loves it. That's what got him over the line. Right. So that's how they originally signed us. And here's the huge irony of that. Right. Normally.

43:03

in the old days when people bought things, the glorious era  in America, they'd sign you and then they would spend a fortune promoting you, saying, here's the new great act  from Australia, the Wiggles, you know, da-da-da.  Whereas we stood out because we sounded different, we'd look different, and in entertainment, we were new. Yeah. And  you can't buy The next big thing. We were, you know, and  I guess that's the other Australian background, being in a band.

43:32

you need to be able to cut it live  or  that's it.  You're gone.  And we were aware of that. And the three of the guys were early childhood teachers, you know, so  they knew what worked with children.  And to this day, they'd finish a show and Anthony still is the creative director and producer. He'd go, hey, mate, you know, when you come in from that side, they didn't react. So how about you come in from that side, you know, or let's cut this down. Just redoing the show continuously. And  he loved it.

44:01

But yeah, we went from there and the big turning point was  we eventually got  signed by the Disney Channel, which was, this is pre-internet, God help us all, but it was cable.  And  they were after something new. They saw what we were doing. And again, it was something fresh  and we were in discussions with them and they spoke to their Australian  comrades, right? And  they had nothing but praise.

44:31

And they actually, I remember meeting with them for the first time and with a guy who had just taken over our video company, who was an English bloke, who had been in Australia for a number of years helping run Triple M. Yeah, seriously. So smart guy and he knew the success of the Wiggles. So we sat down before we met with Disney and he said, how'd you break it in Australia? And how'd you, with the Disney Channel and da-da-da? I said, that Wiggle Time thing. They played individual film clips. I went, great.

45:01

Let's do that. So we met with Disney. He said, let's start, almost like my approach to the Australian Heritage Hotel.  Let's start and see how  you dig it, how your audience rate it.  So they started with what film clips, which they call interstitials. Right. And they had that reaction. They went, oh, wow. Right. So  they were then about to launch their preschool channel, Playhouse Disney.

45:28

and they went, do you have a TV series? Well, yes, we have a number of those.  And  so they got us to write and perform the theme song for Playhouse Disney. mean, God help us all.  Like you said before, it's about luck as well as talent, That's it. If we weren't great songwriters, and they are,  Whereas, know, Hot Potato could be a jingle, right? They're that catchy.

45:55

And Disney, I don't need to tell you how great at marketing they are.  our  show was on four times a day. The theme song as the channel was the Wiggles singing it.  And I might add I had the deep voice on that. I'll just just get that out there.  I work cheap.  You said that numerous times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  So  and your last song when you just say yes to we need you to do this. Yeah. Yeah. But it was great fun. It was awesome. And

46:26

God help us, that transformed us from literally playing a small theatre in Weehawken, New Jersey to within a year, Madison Square Garden Theatre, 11 sold out shows. So it was a rocket ship underneath us. And like in Australia, when you finally get on TV, you don't need to be doing 400 gigs a year.

46:55

Still great if you can, because you make money from it.  But TV is what The awareness is there. Yeah.  And so you mentioned the celebs. That's the point. We're on the Disney Channel. And so, you know, we had John Travolta come up to Anthony and I. were at a G'day Australia event. And Travolta comes up and his boy, Jett, was a huge Wiggles fan. And he literally put his hand on each of our shoulders. We turned around and it's John Travolta.  And he goes, where's Captain Feathersaur? And you know, it's like,

47:24

And you know,  just you know,  to Robert De Niro, to Jerry Seinfeld,  you name it. And guys from,  I think it was Duff McKagan from Guns N' Roses.  Unlikely Wiggle fans.  But it's got kids, right? But that's that's the key. And  I'm just, James,  the singer for Metallica, for God's sake.  So he was in the audience with his daughters, of course still wearing sunglasses.  Of course.

47:53

But that's the big equaliser to their children. The Wiggles are Metallica.  exactly.  And  it is magical. And John Fogarty from Credence. Yeah, wow. I mean, God help us. I grew up with Credence posters on my wall.  And he  remarried and had a young daughter,  Kelsey,  who was a Wiggle fanatic.  And  Anthony  Murray ran into John Fogarty at the

48:22

Universal amp he said are in Los Angeles the Wiggles sold it out and of course he recognized you're back. He went worry, you  yeah, so I think he said get on to him. He's a fan  Yeah, so I did that  and I worked my way and he invited me to his house and we had a great talk and  Then he did it recorded a song with us. We videoed him Just those amazing things and the big connector on all that was the music and John Fogarty apart from it Being a huge connection with his daughter

48:51

but also because he sung with us and videoed with us, he'd play the Christmas video that he was on. And as soon as it came on, she'd go, daddy. And he wrote me a note, which clearly I still have  an email saying, hey buddy, I owe you one.  My daughter gets excited about seeing you guys, blah, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, it  was amazing.  we did occasionally, well, can tell you,  Robert De Niro came to see the Wiggles and brought his partner.

49:21

and his little boy at the time  at the Beacon Theatre.  And  we met with him, we chatted with him, lovely bloke, right?  And at end of the show he walks away and I went up with Anthony to his dressing room and he went, we're just blown away. We were speeches, which as you can hear, we can talk under some air.  We were both speeches.  And he came out with a great line, he went, no offence to them but...

49:48

If we meet someone from home in a way, it's just not going to be the same.  You've got a family friendly empire now, well and truly happening.  Walmart, Disney. Yeah. There must be moments of burnout, particularly as far as managing the business was concerned too. Yeah, OK.  Certainly with the guys themselves.  Physical burnout was very true.  And  Anthony himself, actually, and we were...

50:16

You know, there's a stage in your life, that first third, where we're indestructible. You can eat all the crap you want, there's no problem, right? But eventually it starts to take its toll, right? And so, yeah, and Anthony suffers from depression, he's spoken about that, and he was unaware of what it was, though. And he'd have these great highs, and then after a show, he'd be just down, and found that if he exercised, he was a bit better.

50:46

So he didn't connect it at that stage, you know, and hadn't had a name for it. But he'd had a bit of therapy and stuff. But yeah, he burnt out physically and mentally occasionally. Right. And so we made sure things were much healthier for him.  and he's  he's very much he's got some impulse in him. Right. No kidding.  And he would very much I met this guy as a juggler. Let's get him in the show. Yeah. Really? Yeah. But and it would grow from there. And suddenly it's a circus thing. It's like

51:16

That was a good move. actually worked. But the other thing about, you you talk about  the Wiggles and the Burnout sometimes doing four shows a day. Yeah. When you're looking at your competitors in the children's market and you've got,  let's say Barney, right? Yeah. You could put anybody in the Barney suit. That's true.  And no one will know.  But when the kids go to see a Wiggles show,  want to see Wake Up Jeff, they want to see Murray, they want to see... So you're limited  in how much...

51:44

they can do because they're real people. That's very true. That was their success. Yes. Was based on that. But they're real people and there's only so much that they can do. Whereas if it's, if you're up against the door of the explorer, they can write that many cartoons. Yes. 300 cartoons a year. That's it. And  you're competing against that. Yeah. What was that like? Well, it is tough on the guys physically. And also by this stage, some of them had children. It's tough on being separated from your  kids and your wife and partner.

52:14

And,  you know,  so yeah, that needs sorting.  know, brakes need to be built into the schedule.  All that kind of stuff. But it's,  you know, it does take its toll. I Greg eventually had to retire from the Wiggles. He got a condition  which, you know, was fainting all the time, et cetera, et cetera. And he had to retire, you know, and...  It's not just the touring, like, because if you're touring six months of the year... Yeah.

52:40

When do you then come back and do content and do more videos? Yeah. You've got to factor that into your schedule. Very much so. And even though it's fun, it's full on. And when you say touring, it's actually nine months of the year. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And  our biggest, most successful touring year, which says it all as in time and scale, we did three tours of North America, a quarter of a million tickets per tour. So that's three quarter of a million people saw us in North America.

53:09

And then rest of world being Australia, Asia, Europe, a quarter million tickets. We did a million tickets in 2003. So they're, you know, they're not stadiums. So to get to that number, that's lots of shows. yeah, I mean, it's and it's an interesting life. A couple of my children toured as performers with the Wiggles and my son Luke was in

53:39

touring management, et cetera, cetera.  And  we'd be watching a show  and they'd go, oh,  it's Tallahassee.  And Claire would go, I've been to Tallahassee. And she'd say, what was it like? She'd I don't know.  Seriously, because you turn up in a bus the night before. Yeah, do the show. go to the hotel. the show's during the day. Yeah. You get in the show, you do your daytime thing, and then you drive to the next city.  And we, of course...

54:07

Plan days off in a good place.  Somewhere where there is something to see, not the desert. But  yeah, so it's a great lifestyle as in it's success, whatever, it's no question. Touring's not for everyone. It is hard, you gotta work it out, you gotta manage it properly.  But yeah, was a wild,  fun ride. And to be a part of that, it's one of the great pleasures, let alone business, career, whatever you wanna term it.

54:36

turn it, you know, because I was part of that success. I helped sell them. You know, I was part of the, you know, the discussions when things weren't going great, you know, or, you know, and you'd meet with the video company based in Dallas and it was all about what's the new, what's the stuff you've got coming up. And I can remember this very well, conversation, because also you had to be able to not only sell to the company is going to sell your product to retail, but they would get you meetings with the head of video at say Target US.

55:05

or Walmart US. Pressure's on.  And it won't be, they come to office. We've got to go to such and such place, like the licensing fair. We're going to introduce you to Kayleigh, and she's the head of video sales.  So they know the Wiggles. They've sold a lot of Wiggles videos. But it's all about the next thing. So I  can remember this because I had a lot to sell, and it was very exciting.  And I could do it in 30 seconds. said,  Paul, this is Kayleigh.  Tell about the new video you're coming up. Oh, it's going to come out in

55:34

October is called Wiggly Safari and it starts the it's all about Australian animals and it stars the Wiggles and Steve Irwin the crocodile hunter. Done. Sold. Tick. Yep. That's it. Yep. 15 seconds. You went wow that sounds awesome right? Yeah. And because I've got to say product was still selling really well but the sale the title before that was a bit down on the one before. So you know.

56:03

They panic of course and like, oh wow, we need something. Well,  and I got,  I'm aware of the sales job you need to do on everything, right? Nothing's constant. Nothing's linear. You can be up and down, da da. So when we shot  Wigley Safarin, Steve Irwin and his wife,  Terri, the little girl, Bindu,  it was three at the time for God's sake. Just the world's  loveliest people. They really are  just passionate about animals, et cetera.

56:32

And Steve would do anything, right? But he loved the Wiggles because we'd say, we're to be setting up for the next half hour. Go do what you want, Steve. We'll call you when you're ready. Yeah. And race off and wrestle with Croc and Oz or do a show, whatever.  He loved that because mostly in entertainment, you're sitting around nothing.  So he loved working with them. And I said, Steve, if you don't mind, I'll get you to do a pitch for Walmart for Target. Hey, Target, I'm doing this thing with the Wiggles. That's magic, that stuff. With gold, isn't it?

57:01

That's it. And it's like you speak to them and they can use that. And we did this stuff. We did voiceovers of the Wiggles and Steve that they would play in the aisles, know, and that type of stuff. Needless to say, was  a huge success.  But that's why it was an exciting time where you could... This was an idea we had. And same thing, actually. I can tell you, like the getting in contact with  John Fogarty, the Wiggles on their tour bus in  the States would travel around...

57:31

And that's why I went, wow, Steve Irwin's huge over here. And he's an Aussie. Get in touch with him, Paul. See if he wants to do something. Oh, okay. And his manager, John Staten at the time, lovely bloke, and I said, so getting through to the Steve's the big challenge. And they were doing a million things and a movie coming up and blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was generally, oh, look, we've got no time, dah, dah, dah. And I called him back at one stage because he was on the footy show. I said, John, if he's got time to fly down and the footy show.

58:01

We are the world's quickest and most efficient recorders and producers. He said, OK, come up and you've got to sell it to I OK. don't think I'm bloody up. get up and I go and meet them. He said, oh, he's out there. go Steve. And he goes, lovely to meet you. I've skipped that feather sword. There you go. You're in. And then he asked these questions. I thought, oh, OK. He's seen the shows. And he was quoting.

58:29

funny lines from the Wiggles. So he loved them, right?  And of course his daughter loved them. So the next step, and so I thought, oh, we're in, right?  And then we spoke about how long we take and all this kind of stuff. And I said, no, no, no, no, it's going to be concise.  It's going to be real easy. And we made it that way.  And also Bindi was a huge fan. So the next step was, I'll bring the Wiggles up to meet you, because if we can't get along then there's going to be no video.  But it was just great fun and the rest of it. And the funniest bit of that was Bindi has grown up with wild animals.

58:59

She literally came out holding a large snake. I don't want to name it because I'll get it wrong.  But an oversized snake around her shoulders. Greg was terrified.  Why am I laughing? Poor Greg.  But it was just a great, great, great, great fun time.  yeah, was just so exciting  to be  riding the wave of the zeitgeist. Everyone knew us, you know?

59:27

And you'd had experience with wild animals with Wags the Dog and Henry the Octopus, Dorothy, Dinosaur, but I thought you were going to say roadies.  That too. Let's roll it forward a little bit about you. Your solo albums, the Countdown Live shows.  How does it feel coming back to those musical roots now and  how's it all going? Oh, it's great.  I retired from the Wiggles, ceased working, however you want to term it,  was booted at Nutter.

59:54

We've had enough of you. Just before COVID, I'd worked 24 years for the Wiggles. Again, fantastic. But I knew change was happening.  was different and the rest of it. But not in my work. Claire said to me, you never would have left. I'd be still on the road with them, da da da. If they would have had me that long, I'm not sure. But I knew change was happening. And my wife had retired after 20 years.

01:00:23

of working in an all boys high school.  And I thought, you know what? Her whole life being married to me and dating me, I've been in a band, traveling with the courts, with the band, with the Wiggles. It's her time, or our time, I should say, because none of us know how long we're gonna be around, right, seriously.  And this is the time to enjoy it.  And then COVID hit, and I'm glad all those changes happening. I loved working with the Wiggles, and now I'm glad I'm not.  My son is now the general manager there.

01:00:51

My youngest son works with him. My daughter-in-law works with him. My niece, Lachia, is a wiggle.  know,  it's still there. I still know what's going on. But I'm glad  I changed gear. And the same as Jeff. I mean, you mentioned the shows I'm in. I play in a rockabilly band called The Sacred Hearts. We do the clubs. We just do 1950s stuff. It's pure fun. And who's the keyboard player in that band? Jeff Fatt. So I've been playing with Jeff since I was a teenager. Like, seriously, you know?  And it's wild. We turn up to do these gigs and people go,

01:01:20

That's Jeff from the Wiggles. And the countdown show that I do, I mean, it's just pure joy. do 80s songs, basically the hits of the 70s and 80s. Right. So, you know, it's our age group and on that just know what they're going to get. It's fun doing it and it's contagious again. So as long as I can, doing a gig and going to shows, I love going to shows still. It's like an injection for me. Well, that was going to be my next question is that you're just going to keep doing it now until it's not fun anymore.

01:01:50

Yeah. You can see yourself doing it for the foreseeable future, which is great for all of us who  love watching you perform. Yeah, thank you. Well, yeah, I'm serious. And we always look to the stones.  Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, they're amazing. And because it's all about the music and that's the great thing. You know, we're very lucky to be a part of that countdown era generation, you know, where

01:02:15

It was and even now days where music's very fashionable. OK, this is the latest tick tock it.  And next month you're gone. Yeah. Whereas preschool music is timeless.  Music that we're doing now,  same thing. It's just all about entertaining and particularly as you know, as the economies go up and down and wages go up and down and stock market crash, whatever, people will always look to entertain themselves or get enjoyment. And that's why they're called punters.

01:02:45

Because, okay, I could go to eight different joints tonight. And that's why we say the Countdown show that we do, it's like, okay, they're doing the hits of the 70s, 80s, they got old mates singing. Okay, that sounds like I'd enjoy those shows. That's what we do. You know, we do it because we love it. And they keep turning up, so we'll keep going. You've been married to the lovely Pauline, is it 40 years or something? 40 years, yes. What's through fame and grief, is there a secret to keeping that relationship strong?

01:03:15

Yeah, yeah, I mean,  Dad used to say this, again, a wise bloke, and he said, when  you're going out with someone, you need to tick a lot of boxes, you know, that you get on, that you like each other. This sounds obvious things,  but, you know,  if there are cultural things like shimlet, they can help. But, you know, if you've got troubles when you're dating, mate, don't go ahead.  And from the word go with Pauline, you know,  I loved it, right?

01:03:44

Like after a very short time, I was like, oh, bloody hell.  I really dig this chick. Yeah. No, no. As in like, she is the one. Yeah, dare I say,  is this too quick? You know, but back to it. We just always communicate really well.  Every relationship has challenges, but as long as you can talk it through, right, you know, and we do, you know, and, you know,  that's kind of it. But the main thing is to this day, we really enjoy each other's company.

01:04:14

Right?  And, you know, we've got  so much invested, and I don't mean that in a clinical term, as in the history with each other  nourishes us, you know, and now  literally grandchildren, God help us, we're next level. Like it's falling in love again. You can't stop thinking about them, talking about them, showing photos. And Pauline and I enjoy them together.  We do lots of stuff together. We enjoy doing stuff together. And this will sound crazy to some people.

01:04:44

And I just finished working with the Wiggles, but  when COVID hit, I actually said, this is actually great.  I love being with Pauline. We were going to travel together. OK, that had to change. But it was great to actually have time out and to be together. Seriously.  So,  yeah, just we work at stuff. It's not the same. It's never the same.  We make sure we do things that are enjoyable. We travel together. We do stuff with the kids, without the kids.

01:05:13

with the grandkids, without the kids. I think we just keep it happening and also, hey, I'm going to see Rodrigo and Gabriella. Do want to come, Pauline? I can't stand up for that long. I don't. Do you know what Like, she doesn't have to do what I do and vice versa. it's not anything but no worries. She knows what I dig, what she doesn't. There's stuff we'll do together and that's great. And when we do stuff together, like seeing Springsteen, who I've seen many times, and the Stones,

01:05:44

It's actually even better when I'm with her. You know, when you enjoy something, if you're with someone you love and enjoy being with, it's even better. Yeah, to share those moments. You're making memories with her and you're sharing those with her and you can relive them later. Yeah, and just as much as we can being in the moment. Like, this is good. This is great.  And  with the little ones, like the babies,  I'm the rookie back into it and, you I was...

01:06:13

heavily involved with the kids to some extent. But they would chuckle out there listening. But anyway,  with the little ones, because there's  just two girls and a little boy, but the two girls are together. The older one,  who's now four and the young one is now two. The older one's very much, they call her Polly instead of Pauline, Polly, which is lovely.  And the older one's kind of like, well, Polly's mine.  And she will often say to me,  you take Rafi, Frankie, right? You know, and

01:06:42

you take her to bed. It's like, I've just given my marching orders. But it was good because in the days when she'd have a sleep, that was my job.  I'd nurse her and I'd walk back and forth in a darkened room singing to her,  which was beautiful.  And then I'd put her in the cot and she'd kind of wake up. And so I'd go from the walking, okay, she's asleep, and sit down and she'd be asleep. And eventually I thought, do you know what?

01:07:09

This is beautiful. I bloody love this. Right? there is no place on the world I'd rather be than here right now with this baby in my arms. Seriously. And I said, I'm not going to put her in the car. I'll stay here. And Pauline occasionally would come up thinking, God has been up there all. And occasionally my head would be down. Obviously, the two of my arms in the big chair. Isn't that beautiful? And I will eventually I put it down. But that will remain with me forever. That's being in the moment.

01:07:39

appreciating them. And same with Pauline, we share those  experiences and, you know, they're banal to other people. But, you know, the other one made toast yesterday and she rang me up to tell me, you know, that's bloody great. Paul, it's been an absolute pleasure.  Thank you so much for your time on the podcast and just listen to you talk for hours. It's just you've got so many wonderful stories and  thank you so much for being a part of our podcast, The Big Six. Oh, pleasure.

01:08:08

being with you guys and hopefully Guy will find his marbles. Yes, hopefully.  thanks.  Sorry for those out there listening, we just did wiggle fingers.  The views and opinions expressed on the Big  6O are personal  and reflect those of the hosts and guests. They do not represent the views or positions of any affiliated organisations  or companies.  This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as professional advice.

01:08:38

Please consult with a qualified professional for guidance on any personal matters.