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If you're old enough to remember when phones had cords and the only thing that went viral was a cold, then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Big Six-O with Kaylee Harris and Guy Rowlison. Because who better to discuss life's second act than two people who still think mature is a type of cheese?

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of the Big Sixo podcast. Guy, hello. Hi, how you going, Kayleigh? I'm going very well. Now, can I just talk about one of the reasons we wanted to do this podcast was because you and I have never been Sixty before. This is our first time. We can't we couldn't practice being Sixty but we were curious about what Sixty looks like and how it feels to us and should we be doing things at Sixty and what what are those things and one of the things for me was

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And I mentioned the very first episode of the podcast that 60 really hit me hard. I didn't care about 40 or 50 or 55 or anything like that, but I went to 60 and I was like, wow, that is old. And all of a sudden I feel this urgency to, it's like I can see the end somewhere up there and I feel this urgency to get out and do stuff and experience the world. And now, I guess a lot of people feel the same now as the time, because our kids are

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off our hands and we can hopefully go and live some of those adventures. So as you know, I, um, checked a bit of the Camino earlier this year, which was a way out of my comfort zone, but absolutely loved it and can't wait to get back out there and do some more exploring. What about you? I'm a homebody compared to someone like you. I mean, I mean, you know, I haven't swum with the sharks. I haven't jumped out of a plane, but our guest today is

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probably ticked a whole lot of boxes and she redefines the meaning of adventure. She's the first Australian woman to row any ocean solo. She's the first woman to row the Pacific Ocean solo unassisted without stopping. She's been awarded the Australian Geographic Adventurer of the Year. She's a speaker, she's a mind coach and she's a pretty special person. Michelle Lee, welcome to the Big Six-O. Yay! Thanks for having me guys, it's a pleasure.

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Look, I've got to ask you, at what point in your life did you think, hey, let's go all out and test a few physical and mental boundaries? Because you've done long distance Himalayan treks, you've done Kokoda, you've done it all, haven't you? Look, I would say 40 really was a turning point for me. And it was before that, I had dabbled in lots of little short distance triathlons. And yes.

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backpacked all through Thailand, Nepal, India, Europe, Himalayas and did lots of whitewater rafting, all that sort of stuff. And yeah, when I turned 40, that's when I really, I thought I wanna do something really significant for my 40th. So it was to turn 40 on the Kokoda Trail. And after that, it's just been, it's very addictive. I always issue a warning. These things are very addictive because you just like to see what else you've got in the tank, what else are you made of?

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Yeah, look, rowing across oceans is monumental. It's physical, it's mental. And I mentioned that you'd done the Atlantic, you'd done the Pacific, which was just scary. What lessons personally does all that time alone on such a massive journey, what lessons do you pick up from that about yourself? Things are never as bad as they seem. They're always worse in our imagination. So now I know, and I say to myself, you know what?

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You won't know till you give it a go. So things aren't as scary now because I've worked it out that, you know, our imagination is very overactive. And also I know that there is way more in the tank. We are never tapping into our untapped potential. Whatever we live in the confines of Monday to Friday, nine to five. So while ever you stay in that box, you have absolutely no idea what you have. So.

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For me, it's about testing that constantly. It's, I know I haven't reached my limit and there's a lot more there. And I used to say, by the time I hit day 46 of 68 on the Atlantic, where I thought it was the worst day in the world, my worst day ever, I still had 22 days left in the tank. So they're the lessons that I now take into just normal everyday, Monday to Friday, first world life. Michelle, just let me take you back.

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you talked about the sort of change in your life um you know in around forty. Did you just wake up one day and go I'm not happy or did you or was it a gradual thing? How did how did that come about? After a twenty-two year long relationship ended so we were married for twelve together for ten prior so twenty-two years in total. When that ended and I was age thirty-eight. That's when I decided that you know that was almost like the green light to

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step outside the box and just do things differently, say yes to opportunities that just came knocking. So I literally looked at my life and I said to myself, if I drop dead tomorrow, am I satisfied? Am I happy with this? And if this is as good as it gets, am I satisfied? And I was like, no way. So it was, you know, looking at yes, my life was very easy. It was comfortable, it was predictable.

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I knew all the conversations I'd be having every week on the table, I'm a massage therapist. I knew who I was gonna open the door to, how much I was gonna earn. I just thought, if this is as good as it gets, I'm ready to check the hell out. So I had two options, and that was either shake my life up, do things differently, become a different person, or check the hell out. So I chose to just give it a go. Let's just try and be that other person. Let's just say yes to any opportunity, ask questions later. That was my motto. I just say yes.

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and I'll check out the details later. So that's another thing I've learned is that the finer details are irrelevant. You will get there when you commit fully. So you just need to commit fully, head, heart, brain, heart, coherence, everything has to be in agreement and the doors will open. I've learned whatever you need, the doors will open and the things that you need to make that thing happen will come to you. Were you always that person? And it was just that, I don't know how to put it.

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It was a state of execution of the real person that you were and the person that you are now, was it like that? I would say I never liked rules. That's why I've probably worked for myself for most of my life. Most of my working life I've been self-employed because I don't like answering to people. I don't like having to do things their way. So I was always a rule breaker. If ever I had to comply to rules.

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I would listen to how they do what they do. And I think, yeah, I'll give you the same result, but I'll do it my way, thanks. So I guess I always look at how I can break rules and defy the norm, get out of the Monday to Friday. I've always desired that, yes. And the more I step out of the Monday to Friday, the first world, the more I realize that that's when I feel most connected to everything, to myself, to others.

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So for me, I have to disconnect to reconnect and that's all there is to it. You know, the conveniences of first world, I'm not gonna be a hypocrite and say, you know, I don't use them, I do. But whenever there is a reason and an excuse to walk out the door without a phone, or, you know, we go hiking, camping with my friends, you know, we go off the beaten track where we're isolated, that's the biggest joy in the world for me, to actually say, oh, you know what? Oh, damn, this thing won't work. Oh, I have to leave it at home. I love that.

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So any excuse and reason I have to ditch it, I do. But it is nice to come back to the conveniences of, you know, running water and all of those indulgences of, you know, the big fluffy white towel and fresh sheets and stuff. But I do have to, I need to, it's a need to get out of all of the first world demands, you know, an inbox, imagine no inbox.

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How nice would that be? So things like that I do, I have to almost schedule it in my life as a you know it's a requirement. Let's talk about your first rowing trip. I'm interested in how long did it take to plan, what's involved in planning, financially, mentally, how did that come about? Tell us about the first trip. So the first trip came about just by reading a book called rowing the Atlantic and it hit me at that point in my life when I was honestly questioning.

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everything about my life and you know am I completely satisfied. So it resonated at a very you know poignant moment in my life and I had to change everything I did basically as soon as I decided I'm rowing the Atlantic my life had to change. I had to you know get a flatmate, I had to halve my expenses, I had to learn how to row, I had to build a boat. You know I had to become a completely different person. So you know you have to do campaigning, you need to attract sponsors.

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So in order to attract the sponsors, I had to become somebody else so that, you know, who wants to back someone who's done nothing, has no validation, no credibility. So then that made me go and do the world record to become the fastest woman in the world to roll a million meters on a concept too. So that was ticking a lot of boxes for learning to row, the physiological adaptation the body has to go through to become that long distance stamina endurance body. Plus it was giving me credibility and validation when I'm knocking on sponsor's door and they say, well, who are you and what have you done?

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I'm the world record holder, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, it was a full two years of life changing preparation and, you know, stepping out of comfort zone constantly, even just knocking on the door and asking people to give me money, you know, to back me. That's extremely uncomfortable for someone who's been completely independent, has never borrowed a dollar in their life. You know, from the time I started work when I was 16, my parents...

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never lent me a dollar. I never asked them. They didn't have to. I worked two or three jobs all my life. So that was very uncomfortable. And just accepting that I needed help. That was also very uncomfortable because I used to walk around with a big neon sign pretty much saying, you know, get lost. I can do life on my own. I'm, you know, I didn't need anybody. So I had to ditch all that shit.

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I had to let the wars down. I had to dare to be vulnerable. I had to let go of ego, everything. I had to strip myself bare basically to become what it needed to be to get to the start line. And yeah, so that was a full two years of mental prep. Oh, actually I tell a lie. I did no mental prep and that was my big downfall. I didn't have time. I had to build the boat. I had to learn to row. I had all these other things to do. I had to, you know, campaign.

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So I actually didn't even have time to do any mental prep for the Atlantic Ocean. Whereas for the Pacific Ocean, because by now I've got the boat, that took a big chunk of my time and my money, everything. Now I could actually invest time in my mindset and building that toolbox to get me across an ocean that's nearly three times bigger than the first one. So I just believe that life is stages, it's phases, it's one door closed another opens, that sort of stuff.

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And that's just how my life has unfolded. It's exactly that. You're just building constantly on bits and bobs that you've accrued over life. You know, I love being 50 plus. I feel like it's such an asset because of all of the stuff that I've accumulated. And you can only accumulate those over time. I love saying I'm 52. And you know, I feel like wherever I go, people love that too, because it's full of experience. By the time you're in your 50s, you know, I feel like it makes a big difference. Even when I go for jobs and you know,

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the sorts of sort of work that I'm in, I feel like my age is an asset. So starting late in life, you know, I was 46 when I rode the Atlantic. I turned 50 when I did the Pacific. I turned 50 two days before I rode out of Mexico. And, you know, that was a, again, another two year prep. And I invested at least a year's worth into my mindset, you know, learning to use the tools.

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and putting everything into practice so that by the time I got out in the middle of the ocean, all of those strategies and techniques were tried, tested, they were trusted and, you know, packing, packing all my gear and my food, all of that changed dramatically from the first row. So thanks to all the mistakes I've made, thanks to being so green and naive on the Atlantic, I could then refine and tweak and certainly not perfect because it was nowhere near perfect, but it was certainly a lot better.

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by the time I got to the Pacific. So of all the small habits and practices that you've learned from the Atlantic or the Pacific, all those rowing adventures, what is it that keeps you grounded, balanced, and probably just keeping a lid on saying, well, gee, I'm just now gonna try something like climbing Everest? Yeah.

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Meditation is a big part of my life. It's a daily practice and it's something that it does keep you grounded. So the idea of climbing Everest that was an obsession for a while until I realized the reality of Everest. But look there will always be an adventure in my life. There will always be something that's going to you know take me out of this world, out of the matrix. I feel like we live in just a matrix. And

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keep me planning, because that's where I am, honestly, the best version of myself. When I am caught up in the discipline, the regime, and the demand of planning for something, that's when I am the best version. That's when I become focused. That's when everything I do has purpose, because usually these things come with a timeframe. You've got budgets and timeframes to adhere to. So yeah, I think...

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Those are the things that actually keep me grounded. It's when I commit to things fully, throw myself in 100%, my whole life probably works a bit better, to be honest. This episode of The Big Six-O brought to you by Louis Carr Real Estate, helping people in the Hills District find their dream home since 1992. Ready to buy, sell or rent? Check out louiscarr.com.au for all your property needs.

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head off you kick off the shore with your boot in the water and head off across the Atlantic. Is there a point where you get um and did you hit a point where you said what what on earth have I just done or were you did you push off the from the shore and go wow yay I'm finally here and talk us through that Atlantic journey in your mindset and and you know the good days and your bad days. Yeah um so growing out

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Lagomera for the Atlantic, I remember it took nearly three days for me to lose sight of shore. So that and that's the first time I'd ever lost sight of shore. So no matter how prepared you think you are and you try to be, there is still going to be a world of firsts and I'd never experienced completely losing sight of shore on my little tiny boat. So I remember coming out of my cabin and I was like, oh shit, I looked around like, this is it. Holy crap. Like that's when it really felt.

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real to me was like when I finally couldn't see land. But even on my hardest day, you know, day 46, I never once said or asked the question, what am I doing here? What was I thinking? What? Why did I do this? I just was where I wanted to be. And I said to myself, no one's put me here. You put yourself here. You know, you're in and I reminded myself and realize now that having that connection to your why

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is what can get you through those toughest days. So I reminded myself why I'm doing this, you know? Oh yeah, that's right, I remember you read that book. Oh yeah, remember you wanted more for your life. Oh shit, that's right. So just reminding myself of all of those things. And I was so deeply connected to that, that the hard days, you know, they're easy to get through. I think even in normal life now, that's what I say to people. Just connect to your why emotionally.

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Really sit down in meditation, better, best. Sit down and feel the feeling. What will it feel like when you achieve that? And then go through all of those emotions and go through the perfect picture. Play it like a perfect picture. Play it like a movie. And now think about not even giving it a crack. In those moments of solitude though, during any of the journeys that you've done, you must have discovered something about yourself that may have surprised you. Is that the case?

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I definitely realized how tolerant I am because I had a squeaky wheel pretty much from day one. And I had these on my steering lines, I had these shackles that dragged across my deck constantly. Every single stroke I took, I had this dragging noise and I had this squeaky wheel and anyone else that would have driven them fricking nuts. I know that.

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And I was able to tolerate that. And I could have fixed it too, by the way. You know, I would have just taken some WD-40. I could have just put a little bit of duct tape around those little shackles and that would have taken out that clanking noise that I was listening to. So yeah, I'm very tolerant. And also with pain, when things hurt a lot, I know that I can push through the pain. My hands were torn open on the Pacific, sorry, on the Atlantic.

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My calluses tore and there was big holes in my hands. And every time I grip the oars after any break, I was literally gritting my teeth in pain. And, you know, I never once thought, oh, have a day off or, yeah, definitely tolerant. I definitely can push through pain and I'm extremely stubborn. So, you know, these, they all work for me out there. So day 46, I'm dying to know.

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Oh, you know what? When I really look back at it, yeah, I was just being a drama queen, really. I look back and I think, oh God, it was a day when, okay, the weather had not been favorable for many days. I'd been pushed north, pushed south, you know, gone a bit backwards, done circles, and things weren't going right. Things started breaking on my boat. And it was, I was tired, I was fatigued.

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and the swell was the biggest I'd ever seen it. So I was a little bit scared. You mix all, put all these things in a bag, just one or two of those things in the bag is not a problem, but it just goes to show what happens when you now add fatigue on top of that and just how we can easily become the drama queen. Because honestly, when I looked back at it and you know, the next day when I pulled myself together and I'm like, well, actually.

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there was nothing actually broken on my boat. My boat wasn't sinking. I'm not broken, you know, blah, blah, blah. I started going through all the things that were going okay, you know, I've still got plenty of power. And, you know, and I was listening to what the other rowers were suffering with out there. And, you know, they were all doing it tougher than I was. So it just goes to show, you know, that was the effects of fatigue. Just go and have a goddamn sleep for crying out loud. Put yourself down, have a little nap, you know, and you'll be fine. So...

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That was it. It was just a compiling, you know, lots of stuff, not quite going my way. And I just had a temper tantrum. It was really unnecessary. Look, you say you're a drama queen in that instance, but I mean, you see some of the reality TV shows where something doesn't go right for an hour or two and there's a meltdown and producers come in and a lot of hand holding going on. You said you didn't do a lot of prep for the Atlantic sort of role. How was...

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the mental state as far as getting halfway across, did all of a sudden you think, good, I'm almost there, or did you just say, oh geez, I might turn around and go back. Yeah, look, milestones are really important on any adventure. And so yes, getting to the halfway point in terms of miles, because we don't know in terms of days.

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what that's going to look like. But yeah, certainly all those little milestones, they're celebratory moments. They're definitely morale boosters. And you know, you always use something, whether it's, you know, you go to your treat box or something, or you have a little bottle of champagne stashed. So you have all these little tiny morale boosters on board as well. But the Atlantic Ocean for me, my big letdown was lack of mental prep. And it was the isolation, which I...

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completely underestimated. I did not think it would be my problem. I honestly thought, oh my God, imagine being out there without an inbox, without a phone, without people being able to harass you, without having to answer a text message, without doing social media, without all that bullshit and noise and clutter that is First World. And yet isolation is what I suffered with the most. So when I came back and we sort of did a bit of a debrief and whatnot and I spoke to a sports psychologist, he said, you were suffering with low oxytocin. That was your problem.

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And you know, oxytocin is the love drug. That's the drug that we get when we pat the pet, when we kiss, when we touch, when we hug. And I'm a massage therapist. I touch people all day. That's what I do for a job. And all of a sudden I'm out there with nothing. And I used to say on a lot of my footage, it's me crying, I just wanna come somewhere to end. You know? So, you know, it highlighted a real need for me. And that was

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How can we boost my oxytocin levels naturally? So I was told, take a teddy bear on board. It works for children. That's why a child carries around a security blanket and their teddy, because they're getting a dose of oxytocin. So I did that. I took a little, I actually took my flatmate's poodle in the form of a teddy. She had it made for me. So I had Mika on board and I swear it does work. So there's all these ways that we can hack

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our feel-good hormones naturally and you know these are things I like to scream from the rooftop you know we don't need the antidepressants we don't need the prescriptions and there's you know plenty of ways we can go inwards to find and to top up all those feel-good hormones and you know we can turn off all those stress hormones and give ourselves a dose of the good stuff. The world will be a very different place. So was it like that Tom Hanks movie where he's stuck on the desert on the

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talks to the basketball called Wilson, was that what your little moodle was like? Yeah, and you do, you do talk to yourself, you have conversations, full-blown conversations with yourself. And I did a lot of wondering about stuff out there and you see things in the sky, so I'd have a conversation with myself about that. And then of course there's the interaction with all the sea life, the birds, the fish under the boat, then you'd get a...

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turtle that had just popped up from nowhere. So, you know, you've got all this other interaction and distraction, good distraction. You know, a pot of dolphins would turn up. Always seemed to be when I needed it the most. When I was on a bit of a low or, you know, I was struggling. They'd seem to just turn up as if they knew I needed a morale boost because that would last for days. You'd be in such awe and wonder of, you know, and the privilege of getting them, watching them play and frolic around my boat.

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And it's like they put on this show for me and I'm like, oh my God, for days I would sit there and I'd go, oh my God, how lucky was I? Well, how about that bird that just like hovered at eye level and he eyeballed me while he's flapping at eye level. And I'm like, oh my God, what do you know? What are you trying to tell me? That kind of thing. And these are the things that get you through the tough moments, you recall them. So they're sort of like bankable memories that you can recall on when you need to.

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boost your own morale or, you know, I also learnt going into gratitude was also an instant morale booster. You know, I always talk in vibration and vibe, you know, so that's what mother nature did for me. It boosted my morale. Oh, you know, you'd see an uninterrupted rainbow and I'd be in awe and wonder. I'd open my hatch of a nighttime and look out. Oh my God, I'd look at the stars, you know, there's.

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No light pollution, the sky is phenomenal, a full moon on an ocean. Oh man, magic. So along those lines, I mean, you've achieved so much and you're probably going to be achieving a whole lot more along the way. Has it changed your perspective on success and what personal fulfillment is? Yeah, look, to simplify that, all as I say, it is whatever makes your heart feel joy.

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So learn what joy feels like. And then whenever you're doing something, and if you've got six options, and you're not sure which one to take, you take the one that is even just a teaspoon more joyful than any of the others. So whatever I do, I try and put joy in my life. Joy, wonder, love, and appreciation. They are the things that are non-negotiable in my daily experience. I make sure.

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I have at least one, if not all of them, at some point during my 24 hours. And I do that every single day. So, and that's not hard to do. That is, you know, you start to get into some nice little habits and rituals. Before you go to bed, just think of one thing to be grateful for. And then, you know, have that little vision of how you want your day to go tomorrow. Wake up with that in mind. So, you know, I used to actually use a whiteboard.

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on both oceans where I would make a gratitude cam today on my GoPro, one minute, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, where I would be thanking somebody who did something to help me get there or whatever. Then I would write that on the whiteboard. So it's the last thing I saw before I shut my eyes. And then in the morning, I had to use that same whiteboard to record all of my rowing shifts. So it was the first thing I saw when I opened my eyes because I had to rub it clean to give myself a clean slate for the day.

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So these are practices that work so well out there and they are so simple to adopt that I do them now in my everyday world. Love, joy, gratitude, appreciation, put all of that into your day, can I say? Just before we wrap up, if you could give just one piece of advice as a metaphor for navigating life after 60, what would it be? Don't die wondering, just do it, say yes.

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That's my thing now, three words, don't die wondering. Why would you put off an opportunity that you are in this body, able and capable, why would you not just say yes? Michelle Lee, you are an awesome, awesome person and a wonderful guest. Thanks so much for joining us on the Big Six, good health and I hope there's so many more successful adventures ahead for you. Amen, thank you.

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Thanks guys. The views and opinions expressed on the Big Six O are personal and reflect those of the hosts and guests. They do not represent the views or positions of any affiliated organisations or companies. This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as professional advice. Please consult with a qualified professional for guidance on any personal matters. Ah, and before we go, let's give credit where credit is due.

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Kaylee Harris and I came up with all the genius content for this week's episode. Our producer, Nick Aboud, well he keeps the lights on and makes sure we don't accidentally upload a cat video instead of a podcast. So thanks for keeping us on track Nick. Nick?